My response to progay propaganda


Yesterday while I was reading a news article I came across a interesting piece of news.

“Counterattacking the Gay Evangelical”


“By Matthew Paul Turner “

“18 hours ago”

“The Daily Beast”–politics.html


In the above article discuss an individual named matthew vines who has authored progay books, progay youtube videos to twist the Scriptures in order to promote his gay lifestyle.

In order to verify of his teaching I visited his website and although he believes he is a Christian, his arguments prove he is mistaken.

While visiting his website I noticed he has created “10 Bible Based Reasons to Support LGBT Christians”. I find such teachings / doctrines irresponsible. I have posted what he or others have written and posted on the website below and it is my intent to respond / refute to what was posted by these individuals momentarily.


“A Brief Biblical Case”

“10 Bible Based Reasons to Support LGBT Christians”

“1.     Condemning same-sex relationships is harmful to LGBT people. Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount that good trees bear good fruit, but the church’s rejection of same-sex relationships has caused tremendous, needless suffering to lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people.”

“2.     Sexual orientation is a new concept, one the Christian tradition hasn’t addressed. Many Christians draw on our faith’s traditions to shape our beliefs, but the concept of sexual orientation is new. Before recent decades, same-sex behavior was understood along the lines of gluttony or drunkenness—as a vice of excess anyone might be prone to—not as the expression of a sexual orientation. The Christian tradition hasn’t spoken to the modern issue of LGBT people and their relationships.”

“3.     Celibacy is a gift, not a mandate. The Bible honors celibacy as a good way of living—Jesus was celibate, after all—but it also makes clear that celibacy must be a voluntary choice made by those who have the gift of celibacy. Requiring that all gay people remain celibate because their sexuality is “broken” is at odds with the Bible’s teachings on celibacy.”

“4.     Sodom and Gomorrah involved an attempted gang rape, not a loving relationship. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is commonly assumed to have been the result of God’s wrath against homosexuality, but the only form of same-sex behavior described in the story is an attempted gang rape—nothing like the loving, committed relationships that are widespread today. The Bible explicitly condemns Sodom for its arrogance, inhospitality, and apathy toward the poor, but never for same-sex behavior.”

“5.     The prohibitions in Leviticus don’t apply to Christians. Leviticus condemns male same-sex intercourse, but the entire Old Testament law code has never applied to Christians in light of Christ’s death. Leviticus also condemns eating pork, rabbit, or shellfish, cutting hair at the sides of one’s head, and having sex during a woman’s menstrual period—none of which Christians continue to observe. ”

“6.     Paul condemns same-sex lust, not love. Like other ancient writers, Paul described same-sex behavior as the result of excessive sexual desire on the part of people who could be content with opposite-sex relationships. He doesn’t have long-term, loving same-sex relationships in view. And while he describes same-sex behavior as “unnatural,” he also says men having long hair goes against nature, and most Christians read that as a reference to cultural conventions.”

“7.     The term “homosexual” didn’t exist until 1892. Some modern Bible translations say that “homosexuals” will not inherit the kingdom of God, but neither the concept nor the word for people with exclusive same-sex attraction existed before the late 19th century. While the Bible rejects lustful same-sex behavior, that isn’t close to a condemnation of all gay people and relationships.”

“8.     Marriage is about commitment. Marriage often involves procreation, but according to the New Testament, it’s based on something deeper: a lifelong commitment to a partner. Marriage is even compared to the relationship between Christ and the church, and while the language used is opposite-sex, the core principles apply just as well to same-sex couples.”

“9.     Human beings are relational. From the beginning of Genesis, human beings are described as having a need for relationship, just as God himself is relational. Sexuality is a core part of what it means to be a relational person, and to condemn LGBT people’s sexuality outright damages their ability to be in relationship with all people—and with God.”

“10. Faithful Christians are already embracing LGBT brothers and sisters. From denominations like the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the Presbyterian Church (USA) to organizations like the Gay Christian Network and the Reformation Project, Christians across the country are already putting their commitment to LGBT equality in action. They’re showing their fellow believers what it looks like to be a faithful Christian who fully affirms LGBT Christians.”


My responses his ten ‘reasons…’:

1 My question for this individual is “what is the ‘good fruit’ he wants?” Due to the death of many gay friends over the years I have found nothing in their personal relationships to be good when they died of disease, addictions etc.

It sickens me that someone without common sense has the audacity to even attempt to use the Gospel of Matthew to further a leftist ideology.

Let’s deal with a unique and specific misunderstanding. The ‘lgbt’ movement did not exist during the life of Christ. No roman, greek or other pagan law held individual laws supporting “gay rights”. So to try to fit present day ideology in the Gospels to prove his point is futile.

Next let’s deal with Jesus teaching.

Jesus as a man and God taught from the Torah to both Jew and Gentile. The Torah was the legal and community law of the Israeli people. As most researchers know there was nothing positive about sodomy and lesbianism in the Law of Moses. In fact those found committing such acts were killed.

Matthew 5:1-48 Gives us a new doctrine for both Gentile believers and Jewish Believers. This teaching by Jesus created a NEW morality from the Law of Moses. A morality that liberal xians donot follow but prefer to re-create false teachings of which are not part of Jesus teaching but come from man and satan. Jesus knew nothing of the ‘gay lifestyle’ during his life and so called ‘gay rights / gay marriage’ also didn’t exist either.

Jesus DEFENDED Gods IDEAL of Marriage between a MAN AND WOMAN. Matthew 5:28-32. He also spoke out AGAINST lust that creates adultery and of course he spoke out against divorce. How interesting the gay men and lesbians aren’t included in those texts.

As for Jesus speaking about false teachers and false prophets in Matthew 7:15-21 we will soon show how vines eisegesis is not part of Christianity but part of liberal xianity.

Note: The entire teaching from Jesus on the Beatitudes is from.

Matthew 5:1-48 and continue to Matthew 7:1-29 and these teachings DONOT promote gay rights or marriage.


2 ‘sexual orientation’ as a term did not exist during the life of Jesus OR the Disciples such modern concepts are merely attempts at easing old sins into new subjects. Jesus and the Disciples taught that there was only man and woman, gays and other modern exualized groups did not exist as they do today. Sodomy, lesbianism, bestiality, child rape all were viewed with disgust by Jewish people and later Christians that viewed such perversions as pagan.

The argument to create sodomy and lesbian as a neo-ethnic group / gender in order to justify those activities not only by legal law but also by church law – doctrines. What vines has been doing and others like him is changing Christianity to ACCEPT gay man and lesbians not merely as church members but pastors and other religious leaders and their by going against both God, Jesus and the Disciples.


3 Biblical celibacy has never included the modern gay man or lesbian because such modern philosophy of creating them as a seperate group did not exist as they do now. However the subject of lust is a sin that carries over to all persons. And why is it they they are immune to such subjects when their own fornications are made from the same stuff as lust? Since Christians are taught not to lust after and fornicate how much more than they? Is it not better to not lust and fornicate within gay sex and in avoiding such activities rendering themselves to many diseases?

Perhaps Fellow Christians have better answers about this subject than I.

Biblical Celibacy is viewed as such.

” Does the Bible teach that there is a gift of celibacy?”


“What is a eunuch in the Bible? What does the Bible say about eunuchs?”


“What does the Bible say about gay marriage / same sex marriage?”


The use of Celibacy is not to keep people from enjoying sex. Celibacy is used as a form of self denial. A person can become celibate in order to grow their relationship with God deeper.

Others may have medical or other reasons to become a celibate Christian.

Previously in my posts dealing with the subject about ACTUAL Christians who struggle with the gay ideology or lifestyle.

” Do gay Christians exist? and What should the church do for them?”

I recognize that there are Christians who struggle with gay thoughts and activities and I pleaded with them to become celibate in order to preserve their lives in my post.


4 Is vines right? Well let’s see.

“What was the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?”

After 2000 years of Christianity and even longer with Judaism almost every reference book and scholar will agree that sodomy and worse were the sins of those towns.

Where does vines get the idea that either the dead cities of sodom or Gomorrah that their activities included marriage or long term relationships? The practice of sodomy did not mean a romantic relationship but was used to satisfy a mans lust inside another man by rape or even in a animal and such deeds are normal or within the bounds of ‘relationships?’.

While I am at it how does sexual fetishes create ‘loving’ relationships? From what I have read about the ‘gay lifestyle’ gay men have had sexual relations with MANY other gay men. How are those choices blessed by God?


5 The Law of Moses is a subject that vines knows all too well. LOM starts from Exodus 20:1-26 and ends at Leviticus 27:1-34.

While I agree that the Theocratic law is not needed for Christians. Jesus taught specific moral laws from that Law. The teachings of Jesus about the LOM is found in Matthew 5:1-48, Matthew 6:1-34, Matthew 7:1-29. Nothing in this doctrine includes creating gay man and lesbians into a separate group allowing them top marriage , obtain specialized rights or teaching in the Church.

As much as what I will say next will hurt them… I must do so…

sodomy and lesbianism are not healthy and not part of Gods creative process.

To ignore the medical and moral implications of unprotected sex by ANY fornication is utter idiocy.


6 Same sex rights and marriage never existed during the life of Jesus or the Disciples. IF Vines looked up the term “Love” in the Bible it would be viewed as “Agape”. The ‘love’ he thinks of is “Eros” which is more related to his sexual identity.

Gay supporters HATE that the Bible very specifically dictates the sins of the past and present. Vines is of course talking about Romans 1:16-32 and in his youtube videos of which I have listened to he supports the very sin that his ‘ancestors’ committed.

Paul spoke very specifically about sin. We can’t lead a successful life as sinners. Romans 6:1-23 to Romans 8:1-39.

7 While the term ‘homosexual’ came into being in 1892. The terms known for anal sex mean the same.

“Full Definition of HOMOSEXUAL”

“1:  of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward another of the same sex ”

“2:  of, relating to, or involving sexual intercourse between persons of the same sex”

“First Known Use of HOMOSEXUAL, 1892”



“noun \-ˌmīt\  “

“: a person who has anal sex with another person : someone who practices sodomy”

“First Known Use of SODOMITE, 14th century”

Since both words mean having anal sex with a man (OR Woman or animal) are not seen as a natural act we can conclude that sexual activities like that are not part of Gods creative system. To further complicate his claims is the ignorance that gays had marriages or long term relationships similar to our modern age. I know of no known historical or archeological evidence to support such claims by individuals such as himself.


8 Again where is his evidence that gay men or lesbian women had marriages or long term relationships before, during and after the Biblical ages? Marriage according to the Torah and Christian Bible were between a man and woman.

The LOM confirms that….

Jesus and the Disciples DEFENDED that…

So called ‘gay marriage’ is a modern construct and not a Biblical one.


9 Vines poor wording is humongous hilarious. Are gays desiring to have sex with ALL persons or one person? Gay men can certainly have friendships within their work circles and whatever else they do during their lifetime.

However to make a importance on sex or sexuality is short sighted and silly.

No one can argue that gay men can’t have long lasting relationships that include sex and all the other needs that enter into that type of life change.

What gays and thier supporters have done instead is forcably changing the Laws of the USA and other countries to accept their lifestyle choices and forcably make people accept them without debate or consideration of the dangers in thier health and many other subjects that gays discuss online.



10: Notice the following definitions.

“affirm  [uh-furm]”

“verb (used with object)  ”

“1. to state or assert positively; maintain as true: to affirm one’s loyalty to one’s country; He affirmed that all was well.  “


“equality  [ih-kwol-i-tee]”

“noun, plural e·qual·i·ties.  ”

“1. the state or quality of being equal; correspondence in quantity, degree, value, rank, or ability.”

To be a “TRUE” Christian according to vines is the following….

You have to positively support lgbt concerns. And consider their lifestyles and choices as equal to your own.

If such things are true than the Bible would be benefical to promote the gay lifestyle and all the rights and responsibilities that gays either crave or already ‘own’. As I’ve already pointed out.

The modern gay lifestyle that thrives in the USA DID NOT exist in Ancient Israel. NO gay propagandists have prove that it did. So all the teachings of Jesus, The Disciples and the Church Fathers or leaders all are in agreement the modern gay lifestyle is a fornication type of sin and it is up to those in the lgbt lifestyle to repent of their lifestyle or reject the Bible and it’s writters in order to follow not Gods agenda but mans.

In other words.

Mr. vines pleas are not Biblical Christianity but mans teaching and his ideas have already been refuted countless times. All you have to do is look up websites that discuss his ideology versus the Holy Bible.

vines ideas are not new but a regular attack against Christianity in order to push Christians to accept the lgbt way of life.

To accept such pagan ideology as ‘normal’ is accepting the world. And we as Christians were warned 2000 years ago not to do so.

Romans 12:2

James 4:1-7

My response to vines and many others like him no doubt is considered to be ‘hateful’, ‘intolerant’, ‘bigoted’ and yet… How is their twisting of Christianity and begging to be accepted on the basis of sin not ‘intolerant’, ‘hateful’, ‘bigoted’ of a system that is over 2000 years old?

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